Well said.

I agree that flags should not be attached to cars - unless it is a parade and the car is traveling at low speeds.

I market flags at FlagAndBanner.com and I have 4 full-sized photos of the American flag.

Please download and share these photos -

American flag photos

Having spent 24 years in the USAF I'm fairly familiar with flag protocol. I used to get goose bumps when the flag was lower at the end of the day. If we were outside, we stopped all activity, stood at attention as the flag was slowly lowered and someone played taps on the bugle.
Yet I can honestly say that even then, it hardly bothered me when protestors burned the flag, or otherwise showed disrespect to it. I still feel that way. That is, flag protocol is for we lifers. Civilians are inherently free to protest and, as long as it harms no one, to vigorously do so in whatever form they choose.

Such protest are usually essentially about showing disgust for politicians who wrapped themselves in the flag: Politicians who try to create an atmosphere that to disagree with them is to disrespect the Flag.

Yet I can see your point of view regarding the large number of folks who fly flags from their autos. Still, the only thing that truly bothers me regarding such antics is that it seems to me they are screaming that the U.S. A. can do anything as long as our political leaders proclaim it to be honorable.

For the past two years many people were afraid to speak out regarding the direction of the Bush administration. Being the lifer that I am, it seemed to me that flying the flag from autos and wearing flag pins in clothing was just too over the top. At the same time I accept that those who do that are merely expressing their patriotism, however flawed it may seem to me.

Who was afraid to speak out? I've heard plenty of speaking out against Bush going back as far as 1999.

Like I said, I would never support an Amendment or law limiting flag burning. After all, the First Amendment was created to protect unpopular political speech. Still, that doesn't mean I like to see it happen.

I don't mind flag lapel pins or patches and insignia. What really gets me are the clothes that are nothing but stars and stripes. (The ones that look like they cut up a flag to make it.) Also, I don't mind flag stickers, window statics, or magnets on cars. I have a flag trailer hitch cover (for my kitten stomping SUV) and a modest flag window cling. But the actual flags flown from cars get tattered and torn so easily, it is disrespectful.

The difference is that these people are trying to show respect and failing, whereas protestors are intentionally showing disrespect and succeeding.

>Who was afraid to speak out? I've heard plenty of speaking out against Bush going back as far as 1999.

Prior to 1999 that was true. After 9/11 it was largely not true. Even Dan Rather, a whore for ratings, admitted to the phenomena on British TV. He said something like "These days it's considered unpatriotic not to wear or fly the flag or to say anything about the current administration," adding that, " I'll admit that even I am afraid to speak out."

>.The difference is that these people are trying to show respect and failing, whereas protestors are intentionally showing disrespect and succeeding

Some might say the difference is the flag wavers are trying to show that you are either with us or against us; there is no room for debate. Like you seem to be, the flag wavers may also believe they have the right to judge what protocol to keep and what to throw away. Flag wavers are flying the flag until it tatters, which is surely a deliberate act. You don't like it, but since they agree with you you grudingly accept it.

On the other hand, it's not acceptable for the (shudder) protesters, to deliberately attack a flag which has come to reflect what they see as an oppressive government.

It seems to me that your stance is a self serving one which is cloaked in the mantle of self rightgeousness. For many of us, the flag is a symbol of what's right in the U. S. It's an idea and not the material that it's printed on.

When that idea seems to be tarnished by events, it is the right, nay, even the duty of citizens to protest in anyway they see fit, providing they do no physical harm.

I accept their right, and yours, to try to dictate who is disrespectful to the flag, just as I respect the right of some, even though I own a weapon, to demand gun control.

Yet it seems to me that from your point of view it's okay for you to make the rules for those who might disagree with you, but it's down right awful when they try to express their views.

Flags are for post offices so you can find them, and for US embassies abroad to indicate there are reasonable people there to talk to after dealing with crazy foreigners for a while.

Other than that, the flag belongs to everybody, including snake oil salesmen and politicians; it's not a symbol belonging to ``patriotic people.''

Dan Rather is an idiot. He was afraid to speak out because of the reaction from the American public, not the reaction of the government. Being afraid of a negative public reaction that would probably be career limiting, is a product of free speech. Free speech means free from government persecution, not free from consequences.

It is that same freedom that I use to try to educate people about showing respect for the flag. I already stated that I would not support any regulations limiting flag burning and other political protests. That doesn't mean that I'm about to agree with them either. Just like I would never attempt to ban people from marching on Washington with signs, you wouldn't catch me with a "No Blood for Oil" sign either.

As for flag etiquette, I didn't make the rules, I learned them growing up. It was merely my point to let people know that some of their attempts at patriotism show disrespect for the flag. You can call me self-righteous if you want, but nothing is going to make me think that this Star Spangled Penis is just their form of unbridled patriotism.

>As for flag etiquette, I didn't make the rules, I learned them growing up.

Hmm, really? Then live by all the rules you so love and take the flag off your cat killer's trailer hitch.

>As for flag etiquette, I didn't make the rules, I learned them growing up.

I learned them too and thought they were stupid, sort of like being a Catholic.

My, aren't we argumentative lately?

>My, aren't we argumentative lately?

Fun ain't it?
Like I said, protesting and burning flags art acts of patriotism which is just as valid as flag wavers who trivialise the flag by making a variety of flag-like devices and sticking them in every conceiveable nook and cranny. Both acts are patriotic in that it essentially reflects free speech.

Had you not admitted to your own lack of protocol regarding the flag I would have remained silent, after all it's your right to be upset if you want. But to preach about how to treat the flag while you are at the same time doing your on desicration is clearly a double standard on your part.

So do you do this sort of thing deliberately? You know, grandly educate us regarding flag protocol while you sit on the flag covered trailer hitch of your SUV?

Um. I tried to keep my flag protocol to actual flags. I also stated that it would be more respectful to put up a sticker or magnet that would not become frayed and damaged. I think my small trailer hitch cover fits into that category. Mainly it is about the appearance of the flag.

I think you are harping on this a bit much. I didn't realize that flag etiquette was such a hot topic for you. Or, are you grabbing at straws to get one over on me?

>Um. I tried to keep my flag protocol to actual flags.I think my small trailer hitch cover fits into that category.

Yes, and it seems to me that the above notions are rather self rightious to say the least. Apparently you are unable, or more likely, unwilling, to see what seems to clearly be your own double standard. Just the sort of thing that you "harped" on and I agreed with regarding the antics of Kerry and his weak denial regarding going to war in Irag. That was Ravenwood at his best.

What I'm "harping" on is your continued defense of what seems, in this instance, to me to be your double standard way of viewing the world. Hey, I'm not even knocking that. I'm knocking what appears to be your dishonesty, which is maybe anchored in fear, in your continued denial of what seems to be your double standards.

My disapointment is when you rewrite flag protocol so that it agrees with your standards and knock everyone who dares to go against your visions of how the flag "should" be treated. Protocol is Protocol. If you're going to lecture on the subject then live by the true edicts of flag Protocol. Otherwise you only appear to be that which you dispise.

Anyone can err, even you. It's our nature to make mistakes and it seems to me that we have to hone our own personal honesty until it becomes our nature to admit our mistakes.

But if you are unwilling to even consider that in regard to this subject you may have been wrong, then is there any hope that you can ever further evolve? In my heart I suspect that is not who you are.

Again, you are trying to extend my gripe beyond what I was griping about. I wrote the piece about actual flags and not representations of the flag. At the core of my complaint are those people that put a flag on their car, subject it to highway speeds, and end up with a faded, torn and ripped up mess.

I then tried to convey that the reason for such treatment probably stems from people not knowing even basic flag etiquette. Then I tried to communicate some basic flag etiquette, while buffering it with the disclaimer that I'm not trying to be "flag nanny".

I also stated that I like to see people express patriotism, but not when doing so results in disrespect for the flag. You have attempted to twist that notion by claiming that I am taking a self righteous expectation that people adhere to strict flag etiquette rules, while I break them myself. I never made any such claim, and you are not going to get me to defend that position. I also am not going to respond to your personal attack that I am somehow being dishonest.

Common sense has to come into the picture at some point, because strict flag etiquette would provide that you should not use postage stamps or even currency that has a representation of the flag on it. Personally, I think that is a bit extreme.

You can paint me as dishonest, stubborn, and as holding a double standard if you want, I really don't care, nor will I respond to personal attacks. I stand behind the original post.

This is my final word on this matter, but you are free to beat the dead horse if you want.

BTW, this debate has never been about flag protocol and you know it. You also know by my previous rebuttals that I am not into dictating flag protocol as I see it as the right of all citizens to use their own judgment.

Your statement regarding an implied obsession with flag etiquette on my part is merely a very thin ploy to try to obscure what we both know is the subject and that subject is about what is clearly, at least on this topic, your dishonest double standards and your defense of them.

>My, aren't we argumentative lately?

My point is that the flag nannies, as you dismiss them as, are like Catholics. Flag-stuff makes sense to them but is bizarre to outsiders, inexplicable. Flag preaching, let's call it by analogy, simply doesn't make sense to flag non-Catholics.

The resentment on the part of the outsiders is the implied equation that patriotism = flag-stuff. Which is the point of the flag stuff, even for insiders.

That provokes what I'd call good flag burning: aiming to offend the flag nanny, saying keep your nose out of here or it will get knocked off. Something like Thurber's point of view about experts out of their fields. It provoked similarly many a good essay from him. All I lack is the talent to do it right.

Well Ron, I think you said it just exactly right. `Wish I had the talent to be so succinct.

LOL, BTW, I got a kinda funny personal email from Steve which said, "Two words, Prozac." Ummm , I did not know that Prozac is two words! Wow, I learned something new!
And Steve I have two words for you,
Adopt Accountability.