I haven't been able to sit down with an honest-to-god atheist to ask the most troubling question I have with it: "I beleive, as outlined in the Declaration of Independence for starters, that the rights of Man are derived from God (which one, I'll leave as a matter of faith). In fact, most of the personal liberties enjoyed throughout the free world today are based on just that philosiphy. If you beleive in no god, no divine influence in the universe, where do you beleive the Rights of Man come from?"

I am hard pressed to come up with a good answer to that.

Well, for one thing the Declaration of Independence is not a document with any legal standing, although it clearly has a lot of historical significance. Our Supreme Court will never base a decision based on the Declaration.

Many of us are humanists and believe we have inherent dignity and human right because we say we do. We don't require the blessing of a divine being to make it so.

Also, there is the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights you might want to read.

Yes, I've read that; it does not answer my question. Where do rights come from? The argument "because we say so" is not really valid. Who says we have these rights?

If rights are derived from Mankind, then Mankind can change them-- this directly makes your *rights* as derived from Mankind no longer rights, but privileges. Rights must, by definition, be much more profound than that. They must be inalienable and permanent. So, if rights are not derived from Man, from where/whom are they derived?

I have yet to find a good answer to that without some sort of divine influence.

How is "because we say so" any less valid than "because we say God says so"?

Personally, I believe that all humans have these rights simply because they are human. You have these rights to the extent that they do not infringe upon the rights of other equally endowed individuals.

As my girlfriend once told me, all men are not equally endowed.

Sigh.

The ideals associated with religion are as transient as those of man, so to say that morality from god is more concrete and acceptable than humanism is ignoring the true nature of religion. As an atheist, I believe in the rights of man because I believe in a higher morality, not personified in a deity, but as in the most acceptable of ideals. True freedom is the epitome of that standard, and I'll cling to it as tightly as you to your god.

How is this higher morality not a divine power? I've known plenty of Christians that beleive God is nothing more than this...He simply set up the rules of the universe and let it go where it may.

As an atheist, how can this be reconciled? I really am curious-- I've never known an *real* atheist (only the types from my college days that were trying to piss off their parents). Even if I were to concede that this higher morality is not a divine power, what is it that allows for powers further up the cave (if you will) from Mankind but not divine powers?

Because morality cannot act by itself, and does not exist separate from mankind. It is the representation of the good of mankind, rather than of the influence of a greater being. It is a standard that exists in the mind,thatright and wrong are truly existent, and whether it is followed or not has no religious ramifications, only personal and social.