Ravenwood - 04/22/09 12:00 PM
In Virginia, I open carry all the time. In the summer its just too hot to conceal your sidearm with a coat or overshirt, and a plastic holster against your bare skin can be unbearable too. Open carry is pretty common and I've only ever been questioned about it once.
In Wisconsin, one of two states where concealed carry is strictly verboten, open carry is causing a panic. What's worse is that it is the police (who themselves carry openly) who are doing the panicking.
Police arrived up to investigate Krause while 12 News was interviewing him about his previous arrest for carrying a holstered gun on his hip outside his home. One officer saw Krause's gun and asked what agency he's affiliated with.Just because you are carrying a sidearm, they assume you are up to no good."I'm the same guy I was when you arrested me the last time," Krause said.
The officers asked for his name and called dispatch.
"The reason I'm checking is because felons can't have guns in Wisconsin," West Allis police said.
Krause is not a felon. He's a certified firearms instructor.
"I'm totally opposed to it. I do not think we need more guns on the streets," state Rep. Leon Young said.The mere presence of a gun is considered a "disburbance". [emphasis mine]Young, a former Milwaukee police officer who represents part of Milwaukee's north side, said he's working on fast track legislation to clear up confusion with Wisconsin's gun law.
"If you're walking down the street with a gun in your hand and people can see it or you've got one in your holster here and people can see it, it's going to create a disturbance," Young said.
But until there's a new law, the officers explained to Krause, the attorney general's ruling is brand new to them and they'll act accordingly.
"How it was explained to us is that if somebody calls and makes a complaint -- in other words, they feel threatened -- they feel it's causing a disturbance or they feel that it's disorderly in some fashion. They call us and we respond and we investigate it," a West Allis police officer said.
The officers said in a different situation [without news cameras standing nearby] they would likely still order someone carrying a gun to the ground until they could make sure the situation is safe.Wisconsin should simply pass a concealed carry statute and avoid the kerfuffle altogether.Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen said his memo was simply intended to "clarify" the law, and he does not believe more people will start openly carrying guns because of it.
Gov. Jim Doyle hopes it won't change how police officers respond when they see weapons.
"Our advice was people are permitted [permitted? whatever happened to government of, by, and for the people?] to openly carry firearms -- that it wasn't in and of itself disorderly conduct. We intentionally didn't go into any factual-based scenarios because they're all different," Van Hollen said.
"I assume that local DAs and local police departments are gonna continue to act as they already have," Doyle said.
Police Response
Milwaukee's police chief said he'll go on telling his officers to take down anyone with a firearm despite Van Hollen's finding that people can carry guns openly if they do it peacefully.
Chief Ed Flynn said officers can't assume people are carrying guns legally in a city that has seen nearly 200 homicides in the past two years.
[can't assume people are following the law]
He said that means officers seeing anybody carrying a gun will put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide if the person has a right to carry it. [violate civil rights now, ask questions later]
Flynn said it's irresponsible to send a message that if someone carries a weapon openly, no one can bother them.
Milwaukee-area police chiefs have a monthly meeting on Wednesday, and they're expected to discuss this issue.
Shorewood Police Chief David Banaszynski is the leader of the state chief's association.
He said many departments are asking questions about how to deal with people openly carrying firearms.
He said it may end up being a community-by-community, case-by-case issue fraught with the potential for danger.
"Now, with open carry, which is legal, there may be no training. I could hand you my handgun, you could walk down the street carrying it with no training whatsoever. To me, there is a lot more danger now with people thinking, 'I have the right to carry it so I'm going to carry it, and not have the training,'" Banaszynski said.
Hey-
You're on the right track, here. The Wisconsin Patriots (www.wisconsinpatriots.com) got this opinion issued (after a year of work and a few different methods) in order to put pressure on the legislature for comprehensive (not mandated concealed) carry legislation. We now own the debate, instead of having to beg and plead for every concession like the last few CCW bills that were introduced (and vetoed).
Posted by: M Gallo at April 23, 2009 7:29 PMAll they really need to do is remove the existing concealed carry statute, and it would be good if they did away with the "safe transport" law as well, there's no reason that a loaded gun in a car should be a $100 fine.
Posted by: Joat at April 23, 2009 7:51 PMThere's a problem with the mentality in this state when you have a Chief of Police that is looking at stopping folks to inquire about if they are a felon or not. I would suggest that his dispatch should ask a few simple questions to sift through "the calls" he receives and then if the dispatcher, being a professional, feels there may be a problem, then have the officer(s) check further, I think there�s more to progressive police work then looking for trouble.
People with guns never really worried me, it's criminals with guns that do....
That�s just my opinion after 20 years working various assignments as a cop about 60 miles south of Milwaukee.
I'm really happy this open carry law was passed. It is ridiculous though. The American people have always been able to keep and bear arms. That would be carrying openly. "Bearing to all" so to speak. As a retired Army infantryman I'm definitely going to be carrying. Does anyone know where we are allowed to carry and where we can't? I know about the State forests and such, but what about...say a store? That's a public place is it not? Let me know if anyone has info...
Posted by: Ryan at May 1, 2009 6:02 AMi believe this blog/whatever is a bit too biased toward open carry/concealed carry (perhaps because i've lived in wisconsin and illinois all my life and haven't seen people walk about with their sidearms in the open)... People DO bug out about guns being out in the open. When its against the law. In my opinion, the people carrying guns that you have might have to worry about, do not really care if you see them or not. If someone is going to go to school and shoot up people, they're going to put it in their backpack, waltz into the cafeteria, and start unloading a 10-or-12 shot clip into various kids he/she deems unworthy of living. A law giving tickets for the transport of guns will not change that. The same goes for gang activity. They are not smart enough or responsible enough to use guns responsibly, or just not have them. Potential victims should definitely have a right to carry a useful self-defense weapon, if they are trained in gun safety at least. That's my opinion. ----18-year-old Wisconsin boy.
Posted by: Jack Kerouac at May 11, 2009 2:56 AMI'm waiting for the lawsuits against the police and for Flynn to be fired.
"Screw the law, we're doing what we want" is his message. My response is "I have a lawyer and I'm not afraid to use him!"
PS - what is the other NO CCW state? I know there are several "may issue" states, but the reality is that they are mostly "no issue". NY, NJ, CA, among them. I hear CA has a nice lawsuit on it's hands over that too - "may issue" is unequal treatment under the law; soon those "may" states may have to choose, either "shall" or "no" for CCW. And if the 9th Circuit's "2A is Incorporated" ruling spreads, this whole thing may be moot soon. I hope.
Drew458,
The other no CCW state is Illinois. In some may-issue states (Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, the urban parts of California), it might as well be No Issue unless you're very well connected.
Posted by: Cybrludite at July 24, 2009 5:19 AM1) It's about time for police in Wisconson to "Man Up" and start`enforcing what is actual law, as stated by the Attorney General (presumably the "top cop")
2) The original concealed vs open debate was that a man with an exposed weapon had nothing to hide, while a man concealing did. So in my view, unless a man is committing a crime with his gun in view, there isnt even probable cause to ask him. The line about I'm just checking to see of your a felon (since felons cant possess) is bull. "What made you suspect Joe was a felon, officer? Well, er, duh...he was carrying an openly exposed firearm so that made me suspicious. BULL!
3) Police in AZ have always had to deal with this issue and dont hassle open carriers unless another issue is involved. Maybe the so-called professionals in Wisconsin might want to give them a call?
Posted by: DevoShire at August 9, 2009 6:07 AMI have lived in Wisconsin since 2000 (from Minnesota) and I started openly carrying since late 2009 because of the West Ellis issue and I believe I'm not the only one.
I also have a permit to carry in Minnesota
I have sent many emails to our newly elected officials to support Constittutional Carry within the State of Wisconsin and I would like to suggest that you do the same. In Wisconsin, we just need to repeal two laws to be Constitutional Carry which are 941.23 and 167.31. Now this is only the start of Constitutional Carry since there are several other restrictive laws regarding the carrying of a firearm in Wisconsin such as the school zone law for example. It is our God given right to carry arms for self defense and protection and it states this in The United States Constitution. By exercising my right to protect myself from criminals (who all have illegal weapons) does not make me a "gun totin' redneck". I'm an American!
Posted by: AJ at March 25, 2011 11:40 AMAJ,
Constitutional Carry is an end game but very hard to achieve right off the bat. If you guys in Wisconsin can do it, I applaud you. We are going to try that in Virginia, but it's been years in the making.
We are fortunate that we went shall issue concealed carry in the 1990s. Since then we have slowly made it easier and more acceptable to carry firearms. Our Dillon law makes sure localities can't ban guns willy nilly but there are still plenty of anti-gun statutes on the books (albeit they are unenforceable). There are also a lot of illegal "no guns" signs in state and local parks that we work to bring down when discovered.
I prefer concealed carry, but at times do open carry and it is never a problem, even in Northern Virginia. We hope to get Constitutional Carry (no permit required) in a year or two. A law came up this year but died in committee.
We find that some republicans are afraid of gun rights the way dems are afraid of gun control. They send controversial laws to democrat run committees for the sole purpose of being voted down. That way they don't have to go on record as being a gun nut but cannot be said to have voted against gun rights. One of these days we'll get there.
Posted by: Ravenwood at March 25, 2011 9:52 PM(c) Ravenwood and Associates, 1990 - 2014
